Sermon The Second, Part Two

This took longer than I wanted to post, mostly due to the denizens of my fair city attempting to die a lot.  Makes for an unpredictable schedule, does ol’ Death.  I’d lodge a complaint, but that Dude creeps me out when he turns His attention toward me.  I just collect the overtime and shut up about the extra hours.

Awright, before we get started –

This shit is not The Way, The Truth, and The Light.  It is a collection of concepts you should consider carefully.  It all applies to some degree, but no human being is exactly the same as another.  We all balance on a meniscus of habits, desires, drives, and pathology.  No curve is precisely the same – but everybody’s bent.  Okay?  Okay.

In the first part of this Sermon, I advised the newly Red Pilled Man to let go of his preconceptions about what women like.

So….what do women like from men?

Here are some basics, in no particular order:

1. Women want to be stimulated.

Stimulation in this context is not objectively “good” or “bad” – it’s merely a stimulus that evokes thought or feeling.  This can mean verbal fencing, listening to interesting/funny stories you tell, or doing some activity.  It can also mean engaging in a contest of wills.  It sometimes means thinking about men/you – whether fantasizing, worrying, playing matchmaker, stalking other women on your Facebook (stop it, Katie, we broke up a long time ago), etc.

Relationships figure prominently in women’s status/identities and the stimulation she gets from them is very important to her.

2. Women want to feel sexy.

There is a lot of nuance and individual variation to this.  Women want to be desired by men/a man they find desireable themselves.  Jane Doe doesn’t give a shit what BillyBob the itinerant, meth-addled garbageman thinks of her ass.  She considers him “creepy”, – the only enjoyment she gets from BillyBob’s Epic Ode To Her Glutes is to affirm that she’s out of his league.

A woman who’s in touch with her sexuality also enjoys using it to influence her environment.  For some women, that means making hubby’s Dockers tight by wearing that one nightie for him.  Other women like getting into the VIP/bottle service area of the club due to their Awesome Bew-bage.

3. Women want to feel deserved.

This is distinct from feeling taken advantage of.  Ye Hoary Olde Saying “Rank hath it’s privileges” applies here.  Every woman has a core identity, a way she views herself.  From this view she derives her social status.  This core identity feels like it deserves certain attributes in a man.  If more “man” is available – hey, great! – but less “man” will not be tolerated for long, if at all.  A dude who barely makes the grade will be tolerated only grudgingly.

This principle is perhaps more mutable than others, and bears careful consideration by men.  The core identity changes over time, therefore the “man she deserves” often changes as well.  This identity is subject to influence by extrinsic factors (I’m prettier than that bitch….right!!?!?) and events like childbirth, health, and the appearance (gasp!) of that first grey hair.

The most important and influential extrinsic factor operating on a woman in a relationship is her significant other – but he is emphatically not the only factor.  Do not forget that, gents.

4. Women want to feel secure.

This feeling has many manifestations.  Security can come in the form of a social support net, money, love, a good family, or confidence in the ability of her significant other to deal with problems.  The less perceived ability a woman has to influence her environment (either directly or indirectly), the less security she will feel.  The more her significant other behaves how she feels he should, the more secure she will feel.

Perhaps the most important thing for the Newly Red Pilled Man to notice about these things is that they all occur inside the woman’s head.  None of this stuff is directly related to who you actually are or what you do, gents. Getting women to treat you like a Badass is easier if you are, in fact, badass, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.  How she feels about you is the critical vulnerability.  Her feelings are what fuel her actions.  If you want to influence her behavior, you must be cognizant of them.

It’s also important to point out that some of these principles can conflict with each other.  For example, a woman may feel less secure watching her man be hit on by another woman.  She’s stimulated – there is definitely cognitive and emotional activity elicited.  If the man handles the situation Gamefully, she will then feel desired (sexy) and have her social status reinforced positively (deserved).

The relative importance of these principles is also dependent on context.  A woman you just met in a bar is looking for a combination of the first three, with security a distant fourth.
Matter of fact, if she’s yelling, “Security!” you’re about to have a Real Bad Night.  A pregnant wife, on the other hand, is going to value security very highly.

Rather than seeing these principles as contradictions, it’s more useful to imagine them as competing forces that must be balanced. Pay careful attention to the balance of stimulation and security, in particular.  Think of an aircraft – the pilot must manage lift, thrust, weight, and drag.  Neglecting any of these forces is where smoking holes
in the ground come from (fact!).

In some later Sermons we’ll discuss how you can effect these things.  In the mean time, feel free to argue/teach/learn/discuss in the comments.  I’m heartened and gratified by the discussion that’s taken place here already – you folks kick ass.

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98 thoughts on “Sermon The Second, Part Two

  1. Just discovered the site, and I’m impressed. Maybe it’s just shared cultural notes, but the author communicates his ideas in a way I find easy to digest. I’m sure I’ll be back with more comments, but for now, keep it up soldier.

        • I actually used to get jealous of you Army grunts. You guys have so much cool gear. I spent the first half of my time in OIF1 with an M16A2. Fucking around with the old PAC-4Cs was ridiculous with those things. Even the Army truck drivers had M4s.

          Older Brother is right – we get all your hand-me-downs…

  2. Wisdom in the Red Pill community is rare. Your posts have wisdom.

    So few understand, fewer can pull off making a woman feel desired and deserved. For most (me often enough) communicating desire becomes leering, pawing and drooling and making a woman feel deserved and deserving becomes fau Alpha assholery.

    Thanks for this. Keep up the very good work.

  3. The aircraft pilot metaphor is brilliant, and one I had heard before from an ex-Navy SEAL buddy “Higher, further, faster.” You’ve elucidated it much more clearly than he had. Also this model dovetails nicely into Athol’s Captain/First Officer model as well.

    A previous commenter sees, as I do, some significant wisdom here.

    I have a feeling this blog is going to take off. DS, you are cleared for takeoff.

  4. My favorite part is the “No curve is precisely the same – but everybody’s bent. Okay? Okay.”

    We’re all bent, stop worry about it, stop getting too nervous to approach women. Work on being able to tell which of these needs is on the upswing and how you should handle it if they’re a woman worth doing so.

    • That’s an interesting look at it, Badger. I assure you that any apparent plagiarism was quite unintentional.

      Quite a bit of overlap, as one might expect. It’s interesting that we used some of the same words, but slotted them into different categories. I don’t think either one of us is doing trailblazing, original thinking with these two posts, though. Dudes have been thinking about this stuff for thousands of years, after all – and writing honestly about it since maybe 2006. My intent with this post is to get the New Pill Guys to realize that, in relation to women, who they are and what they do doesn’t matter as much as how she feels about it.

      I remember getting two medals one day in a hospital bed – one was for being an idiot instead of running like hell, and the other was my Enemy Marksmanship Badge (Purple Heart). Mere hours after that I learned that my ex was going to pursue a relationship with the guy who’d knocked her up while I was deployed. There I was, the returned “hero”, getting dumped like a chump. In my mind, I’d done everything right, everything I was supposed to do to get the girl – and it mattered not a bit. A few years later, I realized I’d been thinking about shit all wrong. I’d been focused on what I was doing and imagining that she’d see things my way. Instead, I was some dude who left for a year or more at a time and couldn’t even communicate regularly. I never seriously considered what her feelings would drive her to do. That’s why this article harps so hard on this stuff having no relation to what the dude does – it’s all about what’s inside the woman’s melon.

      I’ve got an arc of articles planned out, and they ought to get at least a few guys on the path to happiness and knowledge. The next few are all super basic stuff like this, then there are some basic tactics, then a few techniques for calibration, and then I’ve got a few things to say about how men should live their lives. I’ll re-evaluate at that time and see if more needs to be said. Nothing I’m saying here is new knowledge, but I’m writing for a very specific audience so it’s been re-processed a bit. If you have the time, please point out where we dovetail. Perhaps hearing the same thing different ways will crystallize it in some Blue Pill Chump’s noggin.

      • The next few are all super basic stuff like this, then there are some basic tactics, then a few techniques for calibration, and then I’ve got a few things to say about how men should live their lives.

        Awesome post. I think the one about how to live their lives will be really useful. In my view, one danger of guys who take the Red Pill is getting too caught up in tactics and not enough about personal self-development. This is oversimplistic but I think of the guy as the PRODUCT and his GAME about being how he markets that product. You’ve got to have good marketing to make the sale, but it will be tough if the product is complete shit, and even if you make the sale, you’ll probably get returned or exchanged.

      • This, forever and ever, this. You spend years doing something that almost every man respects (Samuel Johnson : “Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier”) but it means less than nothing to women. One only needs to look at the divorce rate in the military to realize that women do not, under any circumstances, rate men the way men rate men. I recently saw my old squad leader, who just got divorced after his wife cheated on him. He was the last from that platoon to still be married to the same woman. 17 marriages, 100% divorce rate. Ask any soldier about the sexual culture of the military, and prepare your bladder for imminent release. If we try to play the game without adapting, we lose.

        • Marriage anywhere now is a no brainer unless your wife is richer/earns more than you and has more assets. I’m very cynical as all my friends (good guys) have had bad experiences – Women want commitment but they don’t seem to practice the same and the risks to a guy are far too high.

          • Yep, financially and legally, the stupidest possible thing a man can do with his life is get married. You’d be better off skydiving with a Tuffy bag for a ‘chute.

  5. Dogsquat, you certainly have the gift of expression, which makes your insights all the more interesting to read. Also, your airplane analogy was quite good.

    As a woman, I enjoy reading Game material, because it helps me understand my husband and myself. Your insight about women needing stimulation, for instance, is spot-on, and it made me realize why I occasionally instigate arguments with my husband — there was probably a lack of stimulation leading up to it. I hate to say it, but it’s usually after I’ve managed to rile my husband and we have some heated words that I feel “satiated.” Not in a good way, mind you, but only in the sense that whatever restless feelings I had leading up to the argument are gone. It happens more often when he is away from home for long stretches and I spend too much time alone. I’ll have to think of more benign ways to elicit stimulation when I need it.

  6. I respect yah Dogsquat, but like most red-pill blogs, this is depressing.

    The more I read in the red-pill world the more it seems like working my ass off for what a hooker provides for about a week’s work at minimum wage (and I make more than minimum wage).

    Sure, I’m seeing someone who I know brings something to the table, but so few women do any more I’m thinking learning attraction for the young guys is a fools errand. Money can attract sex and you can find fulfilment and purpose with other men without the BS.

    • Meh, the horror stories always get more play than the happy ones. Same in every venue. Personally, I’ve been in a long term relationship for 2.5 years now, and am quite happy with it. Sure, I can tell terrible, titillating tales of troubled relationships, but I’m in a good spot now. The draw of the red pill community for me is getting better at my relationship, and reminding myself at the same time that I don’t need it. I’m with her because I want to be, no other reason.

      • 11-B.2O/B4:

        Sure, horror stories always play better and we all have our war stories but now we’re fine.

        However, I ask myself this: had I know what was involved in finding, attracting, and keeping a decent woman when I was 22 would I have been better off still chasing women or just buying a hooker once a month and putting that time wasted on women to better use.

        I’m expected to learn Game, be successful, and all that shit for access to a vagina. Where is the discussion about what we should expect in return for all this work. Because if it’s pussy that’s a pretty raw deal. Like I said, a decent hour with a decent whore is $300 US. That’s less than most of us pay in rent and probably what we spend on six dates. I’d be surprised if we get laid every six dates on average.

        • It just seems like you have to “learn Game” because you’ve been conditioned to do other stuff for your entire life. In the last 5 years, I don’t think I’ve spent $300 on all the first dates I’ve been on. I bought my girl a Kindle Fire for her birthday, and that’s the most money I’ve spent on something that’s just for her. I spend more on other stuff, but it’s on things we do together and both enjoy.

          The kind of “Game” I’m offering for consideration consists primarily of identifying where your efforts are most effective (I’ll probably be mentioning the term “critical vulnerability” a lot), and on unlearning all the useless bullshit you were taught growing up.

          When I think back to my Blue Pill days, I realize what a shitload of work having a girlfriend was. Dating was even worse. It wasn’t just more time-consuming and expensive, it was infinitely more nerve racking. Now, I do less and have MUCH better results. I also think I’m a better (defined as more attractive, more interesting, more fun, more satisfying) guy for women.

          The trade off is a little bit of discipline. I pay attention more, and once in awhile have to fight my early conditioning. But all the other stuff – money, time I’d rather be doing something else, aggravation, anguish – that’s mostly gone.

          Girls are fun. Women are awesome, and I like being around them. I doubt I could honestly say that 10 years ago.

          So, if it helps, think of it as unlearning bad habits. You’re “getting shut of rather-more-or-less”, not putting more stuff on your plate.

          • “When I think back to my Blue Pill days, I realize what a shitload of work having a girlfriend was. Dating was even worse. It wasn’t just more time-consuming and expensive, it was infinitely more nerve racking. ”

            See, I didn’t have that experience at all. I’m not bragging, but in all seriousness if I wanted a relationship, I got one. I had a few dry spells, but even though I might have complained at the time, looking back I can clearly see that those dry spells were MY doing. I simply wasn’t putting myself out there because I wasn’t really ready. After my longest single spell (9 months), I was in a LTR within a month of deciding I was good to go again.

            Now I’m not saying I tore it up, as I’ve only had four successful (as I define them) LTRs. but, combined those are over 20 years of relationship experience. My issue has never really been finding a woman to be with. My issue is keeping her interested long term. My first two LTRs lasted 4 and 4.5 years respectively. At about the 3.5 year mark for both, things really started slipping down hill. I used to think it was because I was young and stupid, but honestly I think my issue is I’m decent at attracting and catching a woman, but I truly suck at keeping her interested. My marriage lasted 12 years, but after the first 5 it was really downhill. My current relationship is only 2.5 years old, so I’m still in my “good” zone. I’m doing my best to figure out how to make that zone last a lifetime, and I just don’t have much experience doing that right. I’m really putting my focus on getting rid of bad behaviors that kill attraction, or anti-game as it has been called, because I think that is the root of my issue. Long term, I kill the attraction my mate feels for me with stupid behavior and a bit of laziness in terms of putting in the effort. I get complacent, and we know where that leads. So the goal now: never get THAT comfortable. Yeah, it sucks because I really want somewhere I can completely relax and just be, but I guess that can’t be my home with my mate. I suppose more social men probably find that with their male friends.

          • Really enjoying this. It would help to more clearly define what you mean by the multi colored pills. I get the Maris reference and that red is reality concerning women and relationships, but I don’t understand talk like, “my blue pill days.” I’ll keep exploring the blog in case it’s already been answered.

    • The benefit is that not only do you get sex from a woman, the idea is to create a sexual “situation.” By fostering a sexual environment, the two of you have an arena to be free and open and reach greater heights than you would by hitting and quitting a prostitute or random bar chick.

  7. Dogsquat you are spot on yet again…

    1. Women want to be stimulated
    Absolutely! If you are doing something to stimulate us that means we have/had your attention, even if just for a moment. We like knowing that we are occasionally on your mind.

    2. Women want to feel sexy
    Does that even need explanation? Please objectify us, we love hearing what you like most and will make sure to keep it looking nice.

    3. Women want to feel deserved
    Yes this is true but I have a little different take on this. “More” male will not make up for a lack of #1 and #2 above for long. However, “Less” male who excels with #1 and #2 above will make up for this. 

    4. Women want to feel secure.
    ” How she feels about you is the critical vulnerability.  Her feelings are what fuel her actions.  If you want to influence her behavior, you must be cognizant of them.”
    Not only must you be cognizant of them, you must master/harness them by showing no fear of them.  True security for a woman is knowing that her man can handle the sometimes volatile feelings and emotions she has. We want to know that when we aren’t able to control those feelings, you’ve got our 6.

    “Rather than seeing these principles as contradictions, it’s more useful to imagine them as competing forces that must be balanced. Pay careful attention to the balance of stimulation and security, in particular.  Think of an aircraft – the pilot must manage lift, thrust, weight, and drag.  Neglecting any of these forces is where smoking holes
    in the ground come from (fact!).”
    Truly beautiful analogy…

    Well done Dogsquat

      • Because volatile emotions are not the sign of a man in control of himself and that’s not the behavior of a strong, confident man. As well, volatile negative emotions always have the undercurrent of violence and women, given their physical weakness compared to men, have an instinctual fear of violence.

        • And how does a woman with “volatile” emotions demonstrate that she is in control of herself? Why is it OK for a woman to go on emotional tirades but a man can’t raise his voice without being violent?

          To me any show of uncontrolled emotions in a man OR a woman is a sign of an issue I don’t want to deal with. There is NO reason I or any man should have to “fearlessly handle” a woman’s emotional outbursts. This is exactly the kind of crap that just makes guys like me a little more bitter. I’d LOVE to throw a temper tantrum and have some women smooth my hair and tell me it will be OK, but so far I haven’t found one that agrees it is her job.

          If she isn’t going to be my mommy, I’m sure as hell not going to be her daddy…

          • “Not only must you be cognizant of them, you must master/harness them by showing no fear of them.  True security for a woman is knowing that her man can handle the sometimes volatile feelings and emotions she has. We want to know that when we aren’t able to control those feelings, you’ve got our 6.”
            @Ted – allow me to clarify. I am not in any way giving women a free pass in controlling themselves. All of us as adults should recognize that as a responsibility. That being said, there are some times when we women are not able to understand or control our emotions. Like a wild horse that simply reacts to its environment without knowing why. That horse will be a highly spirited and prized ride once it is broken and harnessed. Not all men are capable of harnessing that raw power. Very few have the cojones to try. But those that are successful will have a ride for life.

            • “That being said, there are some times when we women are not able to understand or control our emotions.”

              That right there is the key for me. Why are there times when a woman can’t understand how to control her emotions? I mean, you have your entire life to figure out how to operate yourself, so to speak. I’ve spent days sometimes trying to figure out why I “feel” a certain way until I puzzle it out. It isn’t anyone else’s responsibility but your own to control how you feel, and I truly think it is unfair for a woman to expect her mate to “keep her in check” when she cannot. If SHE can’t control herself, what hope do I have of succeeding? Wild horses react the way they do because they are wild. Unless you are suggesting that women are wild animals, I just don’t see the similarity. And in terms of harnessing that “raw power”, that is entirely YOUR job to do on your own. That is exactly how I manage my own emotional state, and I think it is unfair for anyone to expect me to take on their burden of emotional baggage as well. To me it isn’t about having the cojones to try, it is about wanting my mate to be responsible for herself. I’m there for her if she needs a hand or a shoulder to cry on, but that doesn’t mean I’m willing to be her emotional traffic cop.

              And really, the idea of “breaking a wild horse” kinda turns my stomach. Again it comes across to me as ‘woman are wild animals that need to be tamed’ and of course it is a man’s job to “break” her. What a sad state to me, that I would want to take someone and “train” them to be a better mate. I’m not interested in training anyone. I want someone that has done her own work on controlling her inner “wild animal” and wants to be with a man that has done the same.

              I already have children and have no intentions of having more. The things I looked for in a mate before I married were different than what I want now, partly because I’m not looking for the mother of my children, and partly because I’m not who I was 15 years ago. I really want a partner to share the rest of my life with, not someone I have to “manage” until the day I die. Good grief my youngest is turning 13 next month, and that means that in 5 years I will finally be free of having to be responsible for another person. My oldest turned 18 this year, and I really can’t explain how relieved I am that she is now responsible for herself. For sure I won’t turn my back on her, but I have done my duty as her father and now she is “in charge” of her life, sink or swim. That really is how I feel about being responsible for others, that it is a sentence of responsibility and worry, and I’ve been looking forward to moving past that since the day I became a parent. Don’t get me wrong, I love my children and continue to do the best I can as a parent for them, but I do consider the “job” to be miserable. I accepted that role because I wanted children, but never once in my entire life did I think that I would be expected to treat my spouse in a similar manner. I truly look forward to being able to interact with my kids as a friend instead of as ‘dad’, and this really just strikes me as having to “daddy” my mate. I am more than willing to be there for her when she is upset, but I would never simply “react” and expect her to handle the blast, and I don’t think it would be fair for her to rely on me for that either.

              Years ago I got myself in some trouble at work for telling a female co-worker she was acting like an emotional twit. Somehow that was considered a “sexist” remark. I remember asking my boss at the time how telling someone they were emotional was sexist, but now I guess I get it. Women are emotional creatures and we cannot expect them to learn to control themselves. Got it…

                • Perhaps. But the truth is I think I really hurt her feelings. Thing is, she asked me my opinion on a situation she was in, and I told her honestly what I thought. It seems she didn’t want honesty, she wanted sympathy, and when I didn’t provide it and instead made her feel bad about her own behavior, instead of taking the advice and resolving her own issues she chose to take it out on me.

                  The good news is I didn’t get shit canned and other than a write up it went away. This same woman later caused trouble for some other guys I worked with by telling our boss that “the work room is like being in a men’s locker room with all the trash talk”. Shit, she had NO idea how much we cleaned up our chatting when she was around!

                  • I hate that HR write up bullshit. I’d much rather you come to me directly, or go to my boss if there’s an issue.

                    In 8 years of active USMC service, I never got one single “write up”. In somewhat less time in my current profession, I’ve never been seriously criticized for my skill, dedication, acumen, or knowledge – certainly not by anyone who actually takes care of patients themselves.

                    At one place I used to work, I got written up five times in about a year for making one clique of nurses “feel bad”. The straw that broke the camel’s back was stopping this particular nurse from doing something superduper-stupid (with tact and in such a way that the patient didn’t know what was going on). I got her one-on-one and said,”Hey – didn’t you read the chart? You could have just killed that guy! What’s going on with you? You need a break or something?”

                    The HR lady couldn’t give me a straight answer when asked the “correct” way to handle that. I guess it’s preferable to kill a few patients here and there than to use blunt language. I’m still amazed at the ego it takes to lodge a formal complaint that says, in effect,”Hey – that guy was mean to me. Sure, he saved my patient’s life and kept me from possibly losing my license, and a lifetime of guilt – but he should have been nicer about it. Please fire him if he does it again.”

                    I refused to sign the write up and made it a point to tell the HR lady how threatened, scared, and insulted I felt when she brought “termination of employment” up. I wish I had that shit on tape – it was a masterpiece of passive aggression. Might be my finest hour, actually.

                    Bah. I take patients there a few times a week on average, and I still get this weird twinge as soon as I see the place.

          • Ted,
            A woman is emotional. They’re made up that way. That’s not to say that they’re free of responsibility of their emotions and actions, but that as a man you need to be aware of how to handle them. You need to know what her emotions are signalling, how to deal with the issue, and how your emotions will also be interrupted by her.

            If she’s flying off the handle emotionally, reacting in a calm way shows that you’re in control of yourself, the situation, and have the authority to be in control of her. Do this until the subconscious part of her brain recognizes it and she’ll calm down.

            Reacting with more emotion will only be throwing more fuel on the proverbial fire. Sometimes it will work by scaring her with your outburst, but it would likely only be short term. You also never know if the fuel you’re adding would simply blow up in your face.

            • OK that makes a bit more sense. Here is the thing though, I am generally not very emotional, at least on the surface. At the risk of sounding like a huge Star Trek fan (which I’m actually not…) I tend to take Spock’s (the Vulcan, not Dr. Spock) view on emotions: they get in the way of logical thought. I do my best to keep that crap under lock down, because I know that letting my emotions run free is like opening Pandora’s box. The problem for me is, when I let someone “in” I lose much of my ability to close myself off from their emotional state. Or, put another way, once I love a person, I am greatly effected by their moods. I’m not really that good at dealing with emotions because I’ve done my best to suppress many of mine most of my life. At least when I get upset, I know or can figure out why. If someone close to me throws a tantrum, I find it very difficult to close myself off from the emotion enough to be able to be logical and calm. I guess I’m expecting other people to be in control of their emotional state the way I try to be with my own, and it seems that most people never learn this at all. It goes a long way towards explaining why people do such stupid things if they are often slaves to their emotions.

              • If you have issues with your emotions then you have issues with your emotions. I’d recommend dealing with them – suppression is not dealing with your emotions. There are a variety of ways to do that – exercise, art, meditation, etc.

                But by suppressing them it sounds like you’ve just changed it from emotions being something you deal with most of the time in small amounts in areas of life that may or may not be the most important to you and changed that to dealing with it all in one large chunk in an area of life you care greatly about.

                I would also stop viewing emotions as something ‘to be a slave to’ or that causes irrational behavior. Emotions just are what they are. Someone able to control their emotions – able to feel and enjoy them while living a successful, healthy life – is someone to be envied. That’s not to say rationality should be disconnected, but that you should enjoy life, enjoy your emotions, and rationally go about getting as much of those enjoyments as you can out of life.

                • I don’t mean to imply that I completely repress any emotional response I have. But I do not allow myself to feel something without a logical reason, and I don’t let my emotions sway me too much in regards to making decisions. Surely there is nothing wrong with “feeling” and emotions are part of being human. But so is having to use the restroom, and we mostly don’t let that control our lives. I think far too many people put too much importance on feeling happy, or joyous, or sad, or angry, or anything at all. Feeling is simply a side effect of living, something to enjoy for sure, but not something to strive for. And it certainly should not be the driving force behind anything as feelings are fleeting at best.

                  To me it just isn’t all about being happy all the time. Life isn’t always about enjoyment, and sometimes it is all about pain and suffering. For sure it makes sense to try to get the most enjoyment you can while avoiding pain and suffering, but sometimes you just have to accept that suffering is what is called for and work through it. For me the desire to do something, anything, isn’t driven by how it will make me feel. More often than not, it is because it simply needs to be done, and I’m the one that can do it. Of course there are exceptions. I am with my SO because it makes me feel good most of the time, and I hope she feels the same. But, my concern is, people who are overly concerned with how they feel are less likely to stick through the tough times, because frankly tough times don’t feel good. If the only thing I offer my mate is how I make her feel, then I will never be enough, because I simply cannot guaranty that I will always make her feel good. In fact, there may be times when I have to do something that blatantly makes her feel bad, and I need her to understand that the feeling will pass, but the underlying structure of our relationship hasn’t changed because I made her angry. If her primary concern is how she feels, then I have no hope of anything lasting long term. Eventually I’m going to really piss her off over something.

                  To me it isn’t that emotions and feeling have no value, it is that they are a poor method of making decisions. And, I fear that far too many people do indeed base their decisions on how they feel, and not what makes the most sense.

                  • Then Ted – you and I are never going to agree on this point. The point of life is not simply, ‘To do something worth doing.’ The point of life is to live. That means striving for the most happiness and fulfillment one can achieve. If that means ‘doing something worth doing’ then great! But I’d say it should only be that if it is changed to ‘Enjoying the act of doing something worth doing.’

                    I think that there are many things in the world that do that. But at no point do I think a man should ever feel it is his ‘Duty’ to do something simply because someone else says it is. Usually that person will have something to gain from the man fulfilling his Duty. Duty to God, King, and Country have led us humans into some pretty nasty places.

                    As for your rationality vs emotion thing – I think people should logically look at their options and chose the one option that will lead them towards the most happiness. Usually this will also involve others in their lives being happy – because happiness is best when shared as a group. I think that people are very good at doing this – men specifically for long term happiness while women are better at seeking short term happiness. When you accept this you’ll find that many women’s actions are congruent with that. How you made a woman feel in the past will hold weight in her mind. How she thinks you’ll make her feel in the future will hold weight in her mind. But both of those will be EXTREMELY influenced by how you’re making her feel right now.

                    • That’s a great point about duty. Despite being a somewhat unfashionable view on some college campuses, lots of guys in the military seem to think like you do. Yeah, I did it for some selfish reasons, but part of why I signed up was to give something back to a country that’s treated me pretty well. I chose the duty.

                  • Yep. You and I simply see things differently. For me, duty and honor come before everything else. Integrity is third, but ties in with honor to me. Happiness is something that should come from living well and good, but if it doesn’t, it won’t change my desire to live well and good.

                    I think somewhere between my grandfather’s generation (served in WWII) and my son’s generation, we’ve lost most of what used to be considered manly; honor and virtue. I get that the world at large doesn’t appreciate honor anymore, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth living for. I know religion is “out of style” today, and I’m in no way a bible thumping Christian, but I was raised Roman Catholic and despite my differences with the Church proper, I still believe in the core teachings and base my spirituality on them. To me it gives purpose to life than simply just living. I not only live for myself in the moment, I am living for myself when I someday have to meet my maker and review my entire life. I want to be able to look at it with pride, not because of the great things I accomplished, but because I lived my life well and good. I’m not saying I’m without sin, in fact I would never even try to take that stance. I’ve lied, stolen, cheated, hated, coveted, shit I’ve done most of the things we aren’t supposed to according to the 10 commandments other than adultery and murder. (Yep, I have even had my own false gods. Money being one of them.) But the over all effect of those sins was guilt, followed by understanding, followed by repentance. THAT is the part we seem to miss these days. It isn’t just enough to admit you are sinning, you have to repent and STOP sinning.

                    Anyway, before I get into a religious spiel (which I am not qualified in any way to do…) my point was I am indeed living for more than this life. And, in the end, if it turns out there is absolutely nothing after death, if we pass on and have no where else to go, in the end I will still have lived a good life. Could it have been happier? Probably. But I’m pleased with the happiness I have, because it comes not from any intentional efforts to make myself happy, but from being a good person and having good people around me. Happiness is the reward, not that goal.

        • Ditto the Private Man. Emotional intensity is a feature of many alpha male types – emotional volatility is a feature of someone who’s not in control. Emotional volatility means that you, as a man, can be exploited by appealing to your emotional triggers. That threatens your frame and efficacy and costs you points as a master of your reality.

    • Thank you, my dear. Feel free also to chime in when you disagree. I’ve got an opinion, not the gospel truth, and it always helps guys to see what a self-aware woman has to say about things. We may not always agree, but you are always welcome.

  8. Girls are fun. Women are awesome, and I like being around them. I doubt I could honestly say that 10 years ago.

    This is your unique competitive advantage as a blogger. You made the journey and came out the other side with incredible expertise, the results to show for it, and a generous, positive outlook. There’s a huge appetite for this among young men who are choking on the red pill, and you have a way of communicating effectively with women as well. It’s very exciting to see your blog gaining traction so rapidly.

  9. Question: if this is all about what the woman “feels” in regards to men’s behavior, then we (as men) are expected to manage how our women feel towards us? This sounds a lot to me like emotional manipulation again, which is morally corrupt to me.

    And I get the airplane pilot analogy, but it pretty much states that women are simply machines for men to operate. As long as you can figure out how to make her “feel” good about you, the plain flies true. That’s great if all you expect from your plain is for it to respond to your input. But it can never be more than a tool for you to control. And this is exactly the kind of thing “game” implies that I detest. That my “job” in a relationship is to make sure my SO “feels” good about me, because Lord forbid I do something to make her feel bad. It seems many people believe women don’t have the capacity for logical thought to realize that perhaps her “bad feeling” is caused by her own inability to see past her own existence.

    Sometimes you just have to piss people off to get shit done. That doesn’t change simply because you love the person effected. I realize that, but it seems it is an awful lot to expect from most people.

    • I’ll give you a better reply in the next couple of days – this is just a quick note to let you know I’m listening. Fuggin busy right now. And Ted, nobody ever stays hydrated enough when they’re sick. Push fluids, my man – and go to the doc if you spike a fever or aren’t getting better after a few days.

      • Thanks for the concern man, but I’m in good hands. After all, if I die in my SO’s care, it wouldn’t look good for her career wise. :-p

          • True dat! The thing that bugs me is: as a medical professional, she tells me she is duty bound to render aid if she is to come upon someone in need of it. I don’t have a CPR cert BECAUSE I don’t want to have to help someone if I choose not to. (not saying I wouldn’t, but at least I have the choice) She tells me that if she does not at least attempt to help, she can be in legal trouble? I dunno if this is a PA thing or if it is Federal, but to me it is total BS. She keeps a small emergency kit in our vehicles, which I thought was smart for us. But, in fact she says it is in case she is ever out and needs to assist a stranger. I guess there are things you can do to minimize bodily fluid exchange when doing CPR?

            I don’t know… I can say this though: She is one of three medical professionals in my circle of friends (all women). I like them, because they are all nurturing people that really seem to enjoy helping others. Plus, they fit into our Zombie Plan very nicely. 😀

            • PAs are da bomb! Still trying to get accepted into PA school myself. I don’t think it’s so much a PA thing as it is simply being a healthcare professional period. I carry a similar kit in my car and I’m still working as a nursing asst. IMO if you have skills and certification, you should stop and assist.

              • Sosweet – Good grief I’m a moron sometimes. I mean the state of Pennsylvania, where we live, not a physicians assistant. My SO is an MA and x-ray tech. My daughter has been talking with my SO about going to school to be a physicians assistant, but she is also talking about nursing. To be honest, I kinda hope she goes for the latter, because there are a few medical programs in the Pittsburgh area that will pay 100% of the cost IF the student agrees to sign on to work for them for a few years right after graduation. (in fact, they start while in school, but not doing things that actually require the degree.) With the cost of college as high as it is, it would be great for her to get into one of those. Surely she will get stuck with some shitty shifts at first, but she is young and single, and I am more than happy to let her stay with us rent free as long as she is in school. Anyway…

                I’m not saying that if you know how you should help. I’m saying that I think it is unfair to not allow everyone to make that choice for themselves. I mean, there are some nasty things you can catch from bodily fluids, and you have NO idea what your getting into with a random hurt stranger. It’s sad to say, but I personally would not feel comfortable giving mouth to mouth to a stranger regardless of what protective gear I have. I have MUCH respect for people like DS that do this stuff every day, but it isn’t a drive strong enough in me to overcome my aversion to being that intimate with a stranger.

                • Not to derail this, but I bet Dogsquat knows. Do they recommend mouth to mouth during CPR still?

                  I thought the Continuous Chest Compression technique had replaced the Push Push Push Breathe method of CPR.

                  Not that bodily fluids won’t be encountered with CCC during an accident, but at least you do not have to cover their mouth with yours.

                  • Yep, even with an ambu bag “stuff” is flying. I recertified in FL in Jan and 30:2 was still the recommendation. I believe dogsquat said the same in another comment. That said, it doesn’t even have to be a situ where CPR is needed. Anyone with exp in ER/Trauma will tell you we face those risks everyday.

                  • The recommendation is different depending on who’s doing what (and this just changed in 2010, I believe):

                    -For “bystander” CPR, we don’t actually have students practice the technique of mouth to mouth anymore – just mention it as a last resort. The current thinking is that at least 100bpm chest compressions at least 2″ deep on a pulseless and apneic patient is providing enough chest wall movement to circulate a little/some/enough air. Personally, I think this is probably true, but I also think more people are willing to push on chests than French kiss a fat dead person, and thus more folks will actually do something. All instruction utilizes a little tool called a pocket barrier device

                    I’d be much more inclined to do mouth-to-mouth on a kid if that was my last resort – most of the pediatric cardiac arrests are s/p some respiratory problem. They’re also less likely to have The Aids or End-Stage Halitosis. Since I’m an EMS nerd, though, I have a plastic barrier in my wallet, and a decent jump bag in my trunk.

                    Short answer – mouth-to-mouth as a last resort, and Circulation, Airway, Breathing (CAB) instead of Airway, Breathing, Circulation (ABC).

            • That Good Samaritan Law is quite a bit different for medical folks – it depends on local laws, what the med person did, and what the outcome was.

              You might want to encourage her to ask the CPR instructor to clarify local laws next time she re-certifies – lots of those folks are street medics like me and are intimately familiar with this crap.

              The biggest thing is what’s called “A duty to act”. Basically, that means that if she was on the clock and saw some Badness going down in her appointed place of work, she’d be in deep doo-doo if she didn’t do things perfectly. The lawyers will argue until the money runs dry about the exact definition of “place of work” is. Every once in awhile a story pops up about a family suing a hospital when a patient dies in the parking lot of the facility, and they usually get paid pretty well. That’s the biggest grey area about Duty To Act.

              In my area, my Duty To Act is totally dependent on if I’ve been dispatched to a call or not. If I’m rolling emergent to a housewife who stubbed her toe (and it happens A LOT) and a car wreck happens in front of me, I’m not supposed to stop and help – that’s abandonment of my patient, the housewife. If I’m going to Subway for lunch and I see a car wreck, I’d better stop and help or I’ve abandoned those people.

              Doing shit off the clock is a little trickier. Basically (and I’m not a lawyer) if I do what a prudent layperson does, then that’s the only standard they can hold me to. Now, if I use an intervention not commonly employed by laypersons, I open myself up to a whole lotta problems. So:

              We’re enjoying an Iron City some lazy Friday afternoon, and I see you clutch your chest and go down. Upon assessment, you are pulseless and apneic. If I:

              1. Never touch you and do nothing, I’m safe (off the clock). Sorry, man, it was nice knowing you.
              2. Activate EMS, then perform kick ass AHA approved CPR (30:2, 100bpm, all that jazz) then your family basically has to prove I murdered you before they can get anything from me. I’m sort of safe.
              3. Utilize the arcane and dark art of prehospital Advanced Cardiac Life Support and raise you from the dead, I am totally fucked. First, I was practicing medicine without a license. On the clock, I work under a physician’s license – but when I’m off, I have no right to do anything. Second, the minute I use any sort of advanced intervention (even a little oropharyngeal airway counts) I am no longer considered John Q. Public. I’ll be held to the same standard as a competent ambulance crew with a fully stocked truck. I’ve got a few little things here and there as far as first aid stuff goes, but I don’t lug 300lbs of diagnostic equipment, medicine, and equipment with me everywhere. I also don’t have a trusty EMT sidekick with trained hands and practiced eyes to back me up.

              In the third case, if I worked you until ROSC (return of spontaneous circulation) or EMS got there, I’m not out of the woods. Say there was significant loss of cardiac capacity – well, you can hold me legally responsible for that. Maybe I stopped compressions for 45 seconds to bang in an IO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intraosseous_infusion) for medication access – who’s to say that your problems post arrest don’t stem from that? My fault, and I should have been doing compressions instead.

              If you were in a car wreck right in front of me on a rural road and I stopped to help – same deal. Even if you were having an obvious tension pneumothorax it’s safer for me to let you die. I wouldn’t, of course, and I have enough gear to manage you safely until the ambalamps shows up – but I’d be entirely at your mercy if you live, and at your next-of-kin’s mercy if you trundle off to the next life.

              I rambled longer than I intended to, but you ought to have her clarify the local laws. Legally (not morally or ethically) it’s generally safer to pretend you didn’t see anything and unass the area ASAP if Badness occurs when you’re off shift.

              Pretty fucked up, isn’t it?

  10. doh plane. I’ve been sick the past few days and I’m still taking over the counter cold meds.

    Yeah, that’s why I can’t spell. 😛

  11. I debated adding this, so just feel free to shoot it down, from any view, and I’ll unass this OA.

    1. Women want to FEEL.
    2. Men want to KNOW.

    The Navy Corpsman

    • You are welcome to post whatever you please, any time. I’ll admit to a slight affection for guys who have done/still put band-aids on boo-boos for guys like me.

  12. I think that people are very good at doing this – men specifically for long term happiness while women are better at seeking short term happiness

    Why do you think so? Certainly from a biological standpoint, women are much more likely to take a long-term view. In fact, isn’t male sexuality primarily about short-term gratification, while female sexuality is largely oriented toward obtaining long-term commitment for happiness?

  13. The stimulation point is dead on. The most dangerous place you can be in a relationship is having your woman be indifferent. They need a stimulus, some type of energy to be created, in order to get the ball rolling emotionally and sexually. That’s why it doesn’t pay to edit oneself or back down from arguments.

    By speaking your mind and embracing the conflict rather than running from it, you’re standing on your manhood while making her feel some sort of energy from you.

    • There’s a term that originates from the French Foreign Legion – le cafard, I think it’s called. Those poor bastards would get so bored, lonely, and hopeless sitting in some Moroccan fort that they’d shoot at cockroaches to pass the time. It’s said that more men were killed by le cafard than by the enemy. Boredom can be dangerous – it leads to depression and eventually despair.

  14. Yeah Ted, we’re definitely going to disagree on it. Honestly, I don’t think your, ‘Act good in all things despite whether the world and people in it treat you like shit’ will line up with the red pill at all.

    The heart of the red pill is to treat people and situations as they prove they deserve. Women that have no value, not of mind or body, really have no value. Same for men. If women are just worth a ONS, but are confrontational, miserable to be around, then don’t worry about giving them what they show they’ve deserved if you’re both willing, or just walk away if you’re not. If a woman has value for her mind but not her body, don’t be swindled into a relationship on the ‘Love her for her inner beauty’ line. If she can’t take care of her physical health, why would you trust yourself or future kids to it?

    Most people don’t deserve special treatment, so they won’t get it from me. It reminds me of a point someone made towards a series of Books/TV I love, Game of Thrones. In both, people that treat other characters as they show they don’t deserve get fucked. People that act honorably towards lying, underhanded, dishonorable people get fucked because they played while wearing their kiddie gloves instead of just killing the snakes before they had a chance to strike. Same with people in the reverse – those acting lying, underhanded, and dishonorable (but not in a position of power/safety) towards those of honor THAT ARE WILLING TO ACT. The first gets screwed in those cases.

    The conversation we’re having at HUS is much the same. People will always try to take things from you or use you for themselves. the fact that my typing of
    “And I will defend everything that I own and have created from the world that is constantly trying to take it from me or take me for a free ride”

    Got a response from Susan of:
    “This is a very telling statement about your worldview. I don’t know what else to say, so I’ll leave it here.”

    Only really demonstrates to me that either women don’t have to or generally don’t need to defend their happiness and resources. They’ll find men to give it to them. Which sounds like it fits hand in hand with hypergamy theories.

    And right now your ironclad denial of acting with anything other than ‘honor and duty’ is falling right in line to provide those free rides to people. Honor and Duty are social constructs created to serve the unexpendable sex at the cost of the expendable one. Your bright and shiny words are simply women and society training you that your way of acting is morally right and you should go influence people to serve the greater good (them). And telling you that any other way that takes away from them is evil manipulation serving the other person’s own good. Never mind that they’re doing the same thing, they simply were able to train you that their influence/manipulation is morally right.

    • Leap – Some people murder, does that mean I should? Some people steal. So should I be stealing too? Just because “everyone is doing it” doesn’t mean I should. Or, as my grandmother used to say: “if your friends all jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?”

      Sure it isn’t easy, but that has nothing to do with it. And I’m not suggesting that I or anyone should be completely open to being used and abused. Quite the contrary in fact! I’ve said many, many times how much I tend to believe that “people” in general suck. I trust no one until they’ve proven trustworthy, and I have a very small circle of friends because I simply can’t get close to people I cannot trust. But, that doesn’t mean that I should treat “people” like shit simply because they would treat me that way given the chance. It doesn’t mean that I should lie and cheat to get what I want because everyone else does.

      There are only two beings I answer to in my life: Myself and God. While I am on this earth, it is my own rules on how I treat others that guide me, but the truth is in the end I won’t be answering to myself after I’m gone from this world. I will be answering to God, and there is nothing I can hide from Him. Seriously, if a person has absolutely no one to answer to, there is nothing stopping them from being completely self-centered and selfish. To be honest, I could care less what everyone feels is the right thing to “answer to”, but I clearly see that having no one to answer to is the quick way to a morally corrupt society.

      • “Some people murder, does that mean I should? Some people steal. So should I be stealing too? Just because “everyone is doing it” doesn’t mean I should. Or, as my grandmother used to say: “if your friends all jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?””

        Lord, way to jump to extreme examples to avoid the idea. Next you’ll be citing Nazi’s and Hitler.

        No. I’m saying that you should treat those individuals as they have shown they should be treated. Justice. No acts of charity, no acts of maliciousness. You give people the treatment they deserve and do not shy away from the fact that life sucks, people suck, and the majority of them will take all they can from you.

        Look – even the person acting for Honor and Duty is self centered and selfish. They simply placed higher values on how other people perceive them and their actions than on their own benefits. As such, they can be relied upon to, every time, serve those selfish desires to be seen as a man of worth by acting through Honor and Duty, believing it will give them some reward they haven’t even seen yet, or they’ll some day be treated as well as they think they should be, or they’ll find ‘the one woman’ who will see their value and love them as unconditionally as he’d love her. People who believe those things have put down a lot of resources and a lot of their self image on that world view. They absolutely have something to gain from acting in Honor and Duty to serve others needs. They’ve just bought into the idea that if someone besides them gains from their actions, it means they themselves have that much more value.

        If that will TRULY make you happy, instead of society telling you it’ll make you happy, then great. Go for it.

        Just remember, as Rollo said….

        Hypergamy doesn’t care.

        And the most you can expect out of society is a pat on the head for being a good boy.

    • Only really demonstrates to me that either women don’t have to or generally don’t need to defend their happiness and resources. They’ll find men to give it to them. Which sounds like it fits hand in hand with hypergamy theories.

      And right now your ironclad denial of acting with anything other than ‘honor and duty’ is falling right in line to provide those free rides to people. Honor and Duty are social constructs created to serve the unexpendable sex at the cost of the expendable one. Your bright and shiny words are simply women and society training you that your way of acting is morally right and you should go influence people to serve the greater good (them). And telling you that any other way that takes away from them is evil manipulation serving the other person’s own good. Never mind that they’re doing the same thing, they simply were able to train you that their influence/manipulation is morally right.

      Adamantium on target.

      I think you are correct to note that women will always have “defenders” of their happiness and resources. The White Knight instinct is powerful in many men. I’m subscribed to a thread right now…and getting the comments in e-mail where it is taking a good deal of restraint for me not to call out a guy for the mangina that is on full display.
      I

  15. Gonna riff on that for a second. Its actually kind interesting to watch a guy try to “win over the women” by showing his willingness to “play nice” and not be offensive in any way, and to take it one step further and call out those “bad guys” being nasty. For purposes of online interaction, I suspect it wins him points as a “good guy” but I suspect in real life such a guy would engender no authentic sexual attraction at all. Rollo just had a good post on this which is guy trying to identify as “one of the girls”.

    • I’m a marginally attractive man. Why the hell would I try and be “one of the girls”? You know what I look like. I’d be the world’s biggest, ugliest, hairiest girl ever.

      • Dogsquat,

        I was ***NOT*** referring to you with that comment. I’ve got UTMOST respect for you and how you conduct yourself. You are a man’s man AND a lady’s man, and honestly not to sound gay, but I think you are a good looking guy.

        I didn’t want to name names and places but now I will since my previous comment can be misinterpreted. I’ve got mad respect for your style on HUS. You are diplomatic, but you’ll call out bullshit/wrong-headed thinking when you see it as well. I’ve seen you do that with Susan, and J recently, and other female commenters while simultaneously being humorous about it. You are a MODEL of how to engage women in disagreement.

        I don’t really give a fuck so I’ll say who I was referring to was Megaman who really
        should be named Manginaman. See his comments (over the last 100-200) on the 10 reasons to date a beta for a crystal clear example of ingratiating, sycophantic, white-knighting. Honestly, I wanted to puke reading some of them, because the intent is clear…to be perceived as a “defender” of women from the nasty guys. I think Susan is perfectly capable of policing her house as she sees fit without some guy “rushing to the rescue” to win brownie points. At least to me, in my book, its pathetic. That is what I was referring to in my previous comment,

        • I was just making a joke. I’m going to try and read that thread over the next couple of days.

          I’d be a tragic looking woman though – you’ve got to admit that.

          • My bad. Sometimes, its tricky online minus body language and facial expressions to know when someone is joking and serious.

            Anyways, the broader point is there is a way of interacting and communicating with women where it becomes clear the motivation is to curry their favor and in a sense it is a form of supplication. I used to do this so I recognize when I see it, and it is often characterized by an overeagerness to identify and empathize with whatever the women are saying and feeling.

            • “I used to do this so I recognize when I see it, and it is often characterized by an overeagerness to identify and empathize with whatever the women are saying and feeling.”

              Mike and I have corresponded about this, the ingratiating mode is one of the pure beta “tells.” Like Mike, I used to do this, because I’d bought into the modern SNAG beta dream that if they came to understand my empathy and caring for their issues, they would in turn bring me into their fold and love me for own my faults and challenges.

              Of course it was a bunch of bunk. Few things a woman can do to me raises my ire as much as male white-knighting. It’s just such a transparent suckup play. It’s like failing a shit test before she even puts the test in front of you. Whiteknighting isn’t just a tingle-drier, it’s a violation of the bro code which is clear that one man shall not salt another man’s game.

              That doesn’t mean I lack empathy but it is properly deployed. One of the things about learning game is that I’ve come to really read when a woman needs some actual empathy she won’t punish you for (turbo-charged beta-trait game) and when her complaining is a shit test cry for attention or calls for agree and amplify. Thus my emotional output is extremely efficient and effective, the right alpha-beta balance.

              Now, the whiteknighting shtick can actually be used for leverage, by an experienced and attractive guy, in gaslighting the rage of the frustrated beta male:

              http://solomonreborn.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/proverb-3-the-bright-side-of-feminism/

              “Notice he [the alpha] doesn’t actually do anything for her; he merely validates her position and reinforces her irrational behavior.”

              • Well said Badger…

                The point about ingratiating mode being a beta tell is just spot on.

                Of course it was a bunch of bunk. Few things a **woman** can do to me raises my ire as much as male white-knighting. It’s just such a transparent suckup play. It’s like failing a shit test before she even puts the test in front of you. Whiteknighting isn’t just a tingle-drier, it’s a violation of the bro code which is clear that one man shall not salt another man’s game.

                I think you mean man there? Interesting point that it is failing a shit test before it is even presented. I’m reminded of something I read at HUS a long time ago quoting an interview with Jaclyn Friedman I think where she was talking about dating feminist men, and talking about how there was a type of man who would agree with everything, and how she didn’t find that man attractive at all. Women find men attractive who can CHALLENGE them, not those who see how fast they can jump at the chance to appear SUPPORTIVE of whatever the woman’s opinion, or concern happens to be in that situation.

      • And for clarity, its not that I want to talk a bunch of shit behind some dude’s back. Normally, I would have called that shit out for what it is, but I do like and respect Susan and I think we’ve come to a certain point of agreement where I will try very hard to not post any comments that I think are not productive to the mission of the discussion that takes place there.

        • Meh. It’s her house, her rules. I do the same. Or I try to. Very limited success at times, but usually at that point it’s with male commenters and not her or the females. She seems to have less tolerance with either of those, plus they don’t get as involved most of the time. White knights and ‘lets you and him fight’ mentality.

            • I thought I had been put in moderation, but apparently I (originally) was only caught in the spam filter for a link. After a couple attempted posts without a link, I figured it was the moderation.

              Then, when I posted on Dalrocks that she had put me in moderation she banned me. I emailed, explaining the whole thing, and she said I lacked integrity and was insulting her behind her back and taking cheap shots at her at Dalrocks. All I actually said was that I was in moderation and related the experience where we were debating influence vs manipulation; but never insulted her about it but rather said that I felt insulted by the shaming language she used to try and persuade me that I was being manipulative, paranoid, and must be a miserable person for my world views. So yeah, I never feel that I did any such thing. Never got a response email back after the email apologizing for the mistake of thinking I was moderated and explaining my thoughts and actions

              Still banned though, so I guess that’s my answer.

              • You were just stuck in the Spaminator here, too.

                Man, this kind of stuff can get very personal for people. Irreconcilable differences are inevitable. You feel insulted and wrongfully accused, and I’ll bet she feels like you were talking trash about her to a bunch of people that hate her guts. There isn’t a correct answer there, no objective truth to fight for. Sucks, dude. If you think of some way I can help, let me know.

                • Eh, it is what it is. I’m just sad that it happened. While I (often) disagree with Susan herself, I enjoy HUS because I think any solution to the issues facing us in SMP, dating, and marriage, have to involve women and get our ideas out to them.

                  HUS was simply the place to do it. No where else do you get women, en mass, talking about these things.

                  If I can’t comment there, fine. Saves me hours of time. I just hate not having a balance in the conversations between what’s discussed at Dalrocks/Rollos/Badgers and the rest of my life. HUS did that.

  16. The HR lady couldn’t give me a straight answer when asked the “correct” way to handle that. I guess it’s preferable to kill a few patients here and there than to use blunt language. I’m still amazed at the ego it takes to lodge a formal complaint that says, in effect,”Hey – that guy was mean to me. Sure, he saved my patient’s life and kept me from possibly losing my license, and a lifetime of guilt – but he should have been nicer about it. Please fire him if he does it again.

    This ties back to my previous comment just made. It seems to me that a very important “virtue” to women is that of not being offended. Essentially, “hurt feelings” is elevated to the worst of all sins. This becomes particularly dangerous as in your example when in interferes with reality such as the life and death of a human being. In online forums, it results in the inability to have genuine, candid discussions. One has to start to self-censor for concern of hurting someone’s feelings.

    I think one takeaway though from a pragmatic sense is that in the workplace with a lot of women, you DO have to be very careful on how your words can be perceived. You can’t NEXT a job as easilly as a personal relationship.

    • Absolutely. It’s got to be 300x worse in professions where there isn’t objective, readily available evidence. In my line of work, we can go down to Medical Records and look at no-shit legal documents that prove what happened – or down to the morgue and see who feels worse. What the hell does, say, a teacher or a computer guy have backing him up?

      Totally agree on the self-censorship thing, too. I honestly enjoy working with women, especially most of the hands-on patient care types. I had a female partner for a long time. But (for men) it’s safer and naturally more relaxed in an all-male environment. Add one gal, no matter how cool or tomboyish or competent – and the workplace instantly has additional hazards for the men.

      It’s not nice, but it’s true.

    • “Essentially, “hurt feelings” is elevated to the worst of all sins.”

      A related phenomenon is the conflation of intellectual disagreement with personal injury – i.e. taking it personally when someone disagrees with your assertion or opinion. So it goes from “I don’t agree with your opinion/your facts are wrong” -> “you’ve hurt my feelings with your disagreement” -> “I’m hurt by your intellectual and now you need to be made accountable for my emotional response.”

      I recall a debate between Mike and someone at HUS which had to do with interpreting statistics, the woman could not bring herself to admit she was wrong and grew in her frothing anger at Mike for continually pointing out that her assertion was simply factually incorrect.

      • It has made working in theatre with female directors a dangerous field of landmines for me. One I’m now able to at least see warning flags for “Going this direction will stray you off the path of safety.”

        I’ve had a great deal of success when I learned how to work it right though. Be quiet, observe, and wait for the right moment to pounce with your opinions, truths, and passions. Wait until they’ve run themselves out, frame it so you’re considering, judging, evaluating, and responding to their ideas (which you honestly should be). Then concisely state those opinions, truths, and passions. Don’t elaborate unless pressed.

        Doing it any other way has lead to a crash and burn in achieving a product I was satisfied with or an emotional explosion on their part.

  17. mikec,

    “Few things a **woman** can do to me raises my ire as much as male white-knighting.”

    “I think you mean man there?”

    No, I meant woman as I wrote it. What I’m getting at is that women can mock me, reject me and whatnot, and I’ve gotten to the point where I can deal with it as the lumps of the SMP. But a man trying to cut me down in public to score cheap sympathy points with women who will never reward him with the sexual acceptance he so dearly desires foments an incommunicable level of anger and contempt inside me.

    A man should know better.

  18. herbn
    on May 21, 2012 at 7:12 pm said:
    illu
    Sex is not worth it, man. Susan over there at hooking up smart responded to that same question with an admired ”sex and devotion,” answer but little does she know that the desire for sex greatly decreases as a man ages. I know that most men still desire it, but comparing the desire to when I was in my 20’s to where I am now – mid 30’s- I can say that my desire for sex and female companionship has decreased, sharply.

    I am no longer attracted to the majority of women, like I was in my teens and 20’s, and now only the young and most beautiful hold any attention from me. The rest of women are as good as invisible, and despite the success of Game, and the accumulation of rich-potential degrees over the decades, plus the money I’ve inherited from my aristocratic grandparents, their estates and such, and the sex I had with women who are indeed the top cream in terms of beauty, height(I’m particularly attracted to tall women, something that most women aren’t; heels don’t count) and what I’ve learned from my experiences by dealing with how it was to be an average man(I was 6 feet tall as a teenager, but so were most of my competition for access to girls) and how it is remarkably easy to ”seduce” women when you have your act together, to transform yourself into the ”good man” that women crave i.e, the tall, good-looking bloke who spends a lot of his team working-out, has hobbies beyond looking like the doll Ken, and actually used his time spent in College to attain higher education instead of trying to get laid(which I kinda tried) like most guys go to college to,…

    It was all a waste of time, effort, emotions and patience. My testosterone levels are fine. I am not a closeted homosexual. I wasn’t raped as a child. I don’t have oneitis. I am not scared of strong, independent women and I’m not intimidated by the women who went through the route of playing the traditional illusion.

    Sex is slightly better when you have emotions for the woman, but that’s pretty much how far it can go. You’re always worrying about stds(takes around 6 months for a std-test to be viable. Good luck making a woman wait that long) and many stds aren’t even detectable if you’re a man. HPV is present in most sexually active women and it’s been linked to Prostrate cancer, oral cancer, throat cancer and the likes of negativity and repercussions.

    The price of vasectomies vary according to the Country you’re living in. In the states a vasectomy performed by a half-decent doctor costs 900 dollars. It is a life-saver and it’s not like you’re forever doomed to die childless. I had my sperm frozen at the equinox of my life, at the age of 20 and I’m maintaining it frozen until genetic engineering evolves enough to remove all of the bad traits living in my genetic material to one day create a boy who is perfect in every sense of the word.

    Fathering a child by using the services of a surrogate mother is the way to a lifetime of having your child by your side and not paying exorbitant amounts of cash just because the judge deems the mother of a child worthy of being payed fortunes for delivering a baby.

    Don’t worry about it. You’re a young man. What you’re dealing with is natural. In one side of the battle you have the vast majority of women riding the Alpha penis Carousel all throughout their teens and 20’s, deciding that they can easily find a sucker to marry them when their eggs decide to surrender their fertility card. They’ll put out a few times until they convince you that you’ll get a source of sex; they’ll divorce you and take you to the cleaners.

    On the other side of the battlefield, are the reborn-virgins(women who realized the sucker-potential of religious men) and the women who saved their hymen – or lowered their sex partners numbers – as a ruse for the men who look at them and think, ” wow, a relatively decent-looking/attractive woman who could’ve banged away like her herd sisters could but instead chose to save herself for her future husband.”

    Sure. And all of the young women and teenager girls hanging around in my local Church, dressed in provocative clothes and with thugs lurking around are as virginal as Christ’s mother ;).

    Also beware the women who, when compared to the clothing standards of modern women, could be thought of as members of the Muslim nation(s). They’re the wolves in sheep’s skin. They mastered the art of manipulating men into seeing what they, the ”Christian/Catholic/Jewish/Buddhist/worshiper of ants” wants you to see.

    My advice to you is to gorge yourself in massive quantities of porn flicks. Your sexual desire will greatly desire. Go to college, find yourself something you love and at the same time can create great revenues, have a vasectomy done as soon as you leave college, save up most of the money you’ll learn, ignore and completely avoid all women. And when you reach the stage of being richer than most of the men around you; move to Brazil or Argentina and spend your days banging young, hot chicas.

    That is, if you want sex that badly. If not, just ghost. I’ve met many men who’ve entirely dropped out of society, only caring for it for the medical care it provides, the food, and shelter, but their interest in women and in sex has been voluntarily by their greatest asset; that part of the brain that tells them to not ruin their lives!

    • “You’re always worrying about stds(takes around 6 months for a std-test to be viable. Good luck making a woman wait that long) and many stds aren’t even detectable if you’re a man. HPV is present in most sexually active women and it’s been linked to Prostrate cancer, oral cancer, throat cancer and the likes of negativity and repercussions.

      The price of vasectomies vary according to the Country you’re living in. In the states a vasectomy performed by a half-decent doctor costs 900 dollars.”

      You know what bug scares the hell out of me? Hepatitis. It can be sexually transmitted, and most folks (at least in my area) aren’t up on their vaccinations for it. Nobody thinks about that one, though.

      That’s why, instead of condoms, I use the thumb of my catcher’s mitt.

      Herb is actually older than you imagine. If I’m not mistaken, he was a plank-owner on the USS S-51 (SS-162).

  19. ”There are only two beings I answer to in my life: Myself and God.”

    ”God”, Zeus, Osiris, Ares and whatever let children die every day. You think an immortal being cares about you and your white-knighting? Care only for your sex – men – because we are the ones you’ll depend upon. Women aren’t going to protect you when you fall and women won’t share their resources with you. Semper Fidelis. That’s something nearly every woman can’t comprehend.

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